Faith, Family, Fishing; Navigating Everyday life
Is your family hurting, broken, or just looking to become closer and stronger? Josh and Debbie are in the business of just that. Working through issues regarding the family from perspectives such as; Pastor, Counselor, Teachers, law enforcement, and parents themselves, Josh and Debbie bring a wealth of information about the family, as well as, real life solutions to problems. If you are a Gen X'er with adult children, a millennial with teenagers, a Gen Z just starting, or something else, we have a show for you. Come take a listen, our aim is to restore the family!
Faith, Family, Fishing; Navigating Everyday life
From Rage to Reconciliation: A Marriage Journey Through Anger
There's a raw honesty that hits you from the first moment of this episode as Josh opens up about his lifelong relationship with anger. "Anger is my go-to emotion," he admits without hesitation, "and it's the emotion I filter all other things through, because anger is easy for me to process." What follows is a deeply personal exploration of how this pattern affected his marriage and the journey toward healthier emotional processing.
Many listeners will recognize themselves or their partners in this conversation. The pattern is common - we take complex emotions like sadness, anxiety, fear, and disappointment and channel them into anger because anger feels manageable and actionable. But as Josh and Debbie reveal through their story, this coping mechanism comes with a steep price in relationships, creating what Josh poignantly calls "collateral damage."
The strength of this episode lies in its dual perspective. We hear not just from Josh about his internal struggles, but from Debbie about what it feels like to be on the receiving end of misdirected anger. "I didn't feel like I was in... there was a duality there," she shares. "I didn't feel connected to you, like I could completely come to you and pour my heart out." Her insight provides a crucial window into the isolation and disconnection that partners often experience.
What makes this conversation truly valuable, however, is the roadmap it offers for change. The turning point came through personal accountability - "My life is where it is because of me, because of the choices I made," - and a willingness to do the hard work of examining patterns and making different choices. Biblical principles provided a framework, particularly Ephesians 5:25, which challenged Josh to love sacrificially, laying down not just external things but internal barriers as well.
Whether you're struggling with managing your own anger or navigating life with someone who is, this episode offers both compassion and practical wisdom. The message is clear: patterns can change, relationships can heal, and anger itself can become not just a destructive force, but a catalyst for positive transformation when properly channeled. As Josh reminds us, "You have to hate something enough to change it."
Have you found yourself caught in similar patterns? We'd love to hear your story of challenge and growth. Reach out through our website or social media channels and join the conversation about strengthening families through honest communication and faith.
Hey, it is Josh and on this episode, man, we're really going to open up some hard stuff and really jump into anger how to deal with, how to process, how to deal with a spouse who is angry all the time, and some of the tips, tools and things that you can get into that. So buckle up, let's strengthen the family through faith and fishing.
Speaker 3:One podcast at a time, one fishing trip at a time.
Speaker 1:I'm going to start a little different. If you find this helpful, do us a favor and just share. Share it with someone you know. Go, hey, here's a podcast designed to help the family. You can also follow us on social media subscribe, do all the things. You know what to do. We live in 2025, people All right. So you asked what we're doing on this episode.
Speaker 3:Because I have no idea.
Speaker 1:Because you never have any idea, because I don't tell you.
Speaker 3:You love surprising me. I do Not in a good way.
Speaker 1:Well, and I like hearing your general react not general, genuine, genuine, yeah reaction. Um, this one's actually going to be kind of a I want to start this kind of series on how to okay, okay, so, so some how to um marriage and family and and things like that. Why, why are you staring at me like that?
Speaker 3:I'm trying to see how it's the mic.
Speaker 1:It's not you, it's me it's you 90 percent of the time is you, it's true, but this one um by far going to be the easiest. Lowest hanging fruit. You should have quite a bit um to say in this one is how to deal with an angry spouse is this a trick podcast?
Speaker 1:why, nothing, keep going no, it's not a trick podcast. I just I know like when you look out, you see a lot of anxiety, you see a lot of division, you see a lot of anger in people. Um, you know, and for some, honestly, it just it seems like the new normal um yes and and I went.
Speaker 1:You know this is an area not only do you have the educational background in, but you also have the practical background in, in dealing with me, because, for those of you that may not know me and anger, we're friends like like. Uh, it's been a journey to get to where I am now.
Speaker 1:Um, you've come a long way because I mean I and let's get something out of the way right now. Okay, I don't mind using myself for examples. I don't want people to think it was worse than what it is Like. I've never been like so angry and out of control or anything Never never, been anything like that. But anger is my go-to emotion and it's the emotion I filter all other things through, because anger is easy for me to process. Anger is in most guys.
Speaker 3:Anger makes sense to you Right.
Speaker 1:Um well, it's easy to get out. Right, yeah, that's true, it's a super easy emotion to get out. You know you can do a real big workout.
Speaker 3:You can punch a wall.
Speaker 1:Punch a wall. You can, you know. Listen to anger music Right there's a lot of easy ways to get anger out, so I think it just became easy for me throughout life to cling to it. Turn everything into anger. You know sadness and and you know low points, like you know anxiety. All of all of the negative emotion you know. Turn it into anger and then deal with the anger, because anger is easy to deal with.
Speaker 3:It's like the bag you would stuff it in and go. Now I'm going to take care of this bag.
Speaker 1:Right, and so I learned how to do that. You know at a younger age. You know through temper tantrums and stuff like that.
Speaker 3:Do you even think because you were bullied as a kid? Do you think some of that happened at that point where, like you would, you were sad and then it would cause you to get angry. And then you, because I know, even when you got older, when you know, your face started clearing up and then you started getting all the muscles all the muscles and then all the people that made fun of you were like oh hey, josh, like did was. Was there anger there?
Speaker 3:um yeah, like does that make sense? My question makes sense it does.
Speaker 1:Um, and, and yeah, of course there was anger there, there was hurt, there was rejection, there was fear, there was anxiety, there was depression. I mean there was all those things. Um, and, like I said, for me personally it was just hey, turn it into anger and then deal with the anger, right, which is it's super easy. And when you're by yourself, um, you know when, when you're not in the confines of a relationship, right, it's super, super easy to deal with anger. Um, like I said, I can go on a run, you know. I can go do a real heavy workout. I could go um, you know, do yard work or you know anything of that nature.
Speaker 1:Go shoot guns right right you know all of the things that you know, I would do you put your face in a pillow and scream you know, or you know in the case of men yell right scream. But um, when you're by yourself, though, it's super easy. The problem with that honestly comes in when you start adding other people to the mix, ie a spouse, children or children. Yeah, because now you're still used to processing all of these emotions through this one primary emotion, right?
Speaker 3:But then you have all these people that also have emotions.
Speaker 1:So now you're talking about collateral damage, right, yeah, you know, like, which is why you you know, even throughout my life, like the Incredible Hulk has always been my favorite comic book character mm-hmm because I go I get him right, you know, and, and really, when you look at the intricacies of the Incredible Hulk, I think some things that fly over people's heads are the hope doesn't necessarily want to hurt anybody or anything he just he's all this rage and and just uncontrollable rage and and through that rage, there's collateral damage, even if you look at um, age of Ultron, avengers, age of Ultron, so like when Scarlet Witch messes with the Hulk and then he goes on this rampage throughout.
Speaker 1:Where was it? South korea, or wherever you know they were at the time? Um, you know, and iron man comes and gets the hulk buster and they have this fight. Yeah, there are innocent people that are hurt and even when hulk comes up, like you know, iron man knocks him through this building, you know, drops this building on him and everything, and, and, and Hulk gets back up and you can see him looking around and he sees all the innocent people he's hurting. Right.
Speaker 1:And this gives him the guilt of going look at what my anger has done, you know, and that, and that is the conflict that Bruce Banner has with the Hulk. Right, right Because honestly, yeah, and honestly think about it Like if you're this indestructible, you know All powerful, you know Hulk strongest there is, why would you want to ever revert back to Banner to begin with? Right, right, you know, but it's that inner conflict of Banner going.
Speaker 1:I can't control this and the collateral damage that you know it's not that necessarily Hulk ever went to hurt people, but in his rage filled, you know, anger, anger. He does right and I think that is really the framework and what we need to look at that through, because we're not talking about abuse right all right if you were someone who was being abused. I'm telling like, my advice right now is this leave yes I know it's easier said than done. I you know I was a cop for a while, you know even in counseling, I get it.
Speaker 1:You know. Normally the abuser is the one that controls the money, controls everything. I get it.
Speaker 3:It's hard, I'm not saying it's easy, I'm not trying to, but there are resources that you know can help you Reach out to someone If you have no one else to reach out, to reach out to info at missioncentorg.
Speaker 1:Whatever the case may be, we will walk with you and help you through that.
Speaker 4:So for the rest of the podcast, understand I'm not talking about an abusive situation.
Speaker 1:I am talking about what I would say most people deal with when it comes to this right. You've been processing through your emotions most of your life in anger. It is your go-to emotion, right, but now you're adding other people into your life. Okay, so for me, when I was single, and you know, when I was single, so at 16, 17, you know we've been together a long time. We have when I would get angry. It was easy to go be by myself and process through that. Then you step into the picture Right.
Speaker 3:And so bag of emotion. So from 18 on.
Speaker 1:Um, it wasn't always as easy to just go. Just be gone, you know, that's not healthy.
Speaker 1:In a whole separate way, right, right, but you still have this anger and you still have like this is still how you process through everything right so we would go through situations you know, and, and maybe you know, and, and maybe it would make me feel anxious, maybe it would make me, you know, fearful, maybe it would make me sad, sad, or whatever the case may be.
Speaker 1:You know, and again I'm I'm talking about the negative emotions, right, you know, not necessarily happiness or joy, um, but I would take it, turn it into anger, but I would take it turn it into anger, process through that anger that, inadvertently, would make you sometimes, depending on the argument or or whatever, the focal point of that release for that anger. Right, and it may have been, you know, something, you had nothing to do with, something, you had no control over, something of that nature. But now, because you are here, here, you're that collateral damage, right, and it took, it took me a while to to really get down to that's what I'm doing, like I'm using you as a punching bag again, not literally, not literally, no um but just emotionally, right, just emotionally, like you know, hey, this or this or this is going on.
Speaker 3:And this is what I feel on the inside. But I think, looking at the whole situation, is your goal is never to use me as a punching bag per se, but rather I I have been that, I know it's an overused word. I have been that, and I know it's an overused word. I have been that safe place where you could let that out without realizing oh crap, this is causing some type of damage.
Speaker 1:I would never. Does that make sense? It does.
Speaker 3:I don't mean you ever looked and was like, oh, she'll be fine, because you weren't even thinking about the collateral damage Cause you were trying to work through what you were going through and that and that's what I was going to say, and that's what I think I never looked at you and went oh, you're a safe place? No, not at all.
Speaker 1:I went.
Speaker 3:But emotionally I have been.
Speaker 1:But, and you have, but it was never you were a safe place as much as it was. You were just there, Right? You know in all honesty, the wrong place, wrong time. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3:Kind of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it wasn't that. I looked at you and went oh, she can handle it, it was, you just were there. Right.
Speaker 1:And so you know, I had a bad day at work, Right. Came home ticked off Internal, internally, you know traffic was terrible on the way home it was raining, didn't have air conditioning in the truck. Whatever the case may be, for many years still don't oh, that's right, I forgot I didn't have air conditioning until we got married I never didn't have air conditioning until we got married but you know, then you come home, you know, and it's just like okay, now I have this chance to get this all out.
Speaker 1:So I think we've set that up pretty good, all right. So now I want to switch kind of gears to you and go okay, so you're on the opposite side of that one. You know, obviously, how does it make you feel to? How do you walk through that? How do you deal with that? How do you cope with that? Like, what does that do on your flip side of that?
Speaker 3:so for internally, okay, wow, that's a happy question. Um, for me first it took a while to realize what was happening, because I didn't. I would take it personal, um and go okay, he's coming after me, he's attacking me, he's, you know, going off on me. So I had to realize that it wasn't me that you were going after. Essentially, you were trying to process through what you were feeling and I had to stop taking personal offense to it, because for years I did take personal offense to it.
Speaker 1:It kind of shut me down a little where I was like I'm not even gonna have this conversation because but in that conversation, because you know, these were oftentimes arguments, it wasn't a daily thing so please don't take it that way, but no but they were often arguments and, and I would notice, you would start escalating, which now would cause me to escalate, and then we've lost focus of what the whole Right. And now we're not even talking about no what was actually being discussed. We're now getting to a point where it's like hurt people, hurt people, right.
Speaker 3:And what I, what for me like.
Speaker 1:Just name calling and yeah, you know stuff like that I mean Um.
Speaker 3:What I realized is that over time, whatever was wrong never got talked about because again it escalated and then turned into something you know, when we were dating for two months, blah blah, whatever, and you know we're five, six years in our marriage, um, so it never really got solved. Whatever was wrong? Um, and then I know for me, like I internalized a lot and at certain points I I like it shut me down towards you where I was just like I'm not even gonna talk to him about certain things. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3:yeah, um so I was like for me it was just easier, just to, I'll deal with it, I'll figure it out on my own which can cause um division in a marriage, which was never your point. And I think had you even connected that dot at that time, it might have I don't know, maybe at the time you wouldn't have because, whatever, it was a different time. But I think for me, as like the recipient, it just. But I think for me, as like the recipient, it just, like I didn't, I didn't feel like I could trust you, but not in a not in a.
Speaker 1:he's lying, Not in dishonest kind of way.
Speaker 3:I just didn't feel. I hate the word safe but, um, I didn't feel good having certain conversations with you, right? So I would just let things build up and fester inside me and then which would create other problems. Right, because it became like a poison.
Speaker 1:And then I would just Well then, you're bitter and angry towards me.
Speaker 3:I'm bitter and angry towards you and then something small would happen, and then that would be my open opportunity to pour out the anger that I had because of your anger which would in turn again it would just turn into another right argument that never really had nothing got solved. And for me as a wife you know, as a christian wife um, it took me a while to realize I needed to be going to Jesus and not going off on you about stuff.
Speaker 1:All right, but what's that mean? Go to Jesus, because we, as Christians, we use that term a lot.
Speaker 3:We like saying that. So going to Jesus, take it to the foot of the cross.
Speaker 1:Cling to Jesus, and you should be but cling to Jesus is Right, but let's put some Flesh on it. Let's put some flesh on it.
Speaker 3:Nope, nope, nope I put some reality to it. Yes, In practical terms. Practical terms was.
Speaker 1:RIP Probably Christian. I just saw the logo for it. Yesterday too. I was like we should switch back.
Speaker 3:I was like no uh, remembering that, Um, and honestly it's funny because a lot of what I use I actually got from you, you know, learning from you from scripture, um, you know, even though you were angry, I'd remember be angry and sin, not um effusions war which is hard for me, because I wanted to be angry and throw stuff and cuss you out and yell at you and we're gonna get to.
Speaker 1:We're gonna get to what the gospel bears down on that in a second. Right now I just kind of want to like before we get to that point okay I just kind of want to look at it as people, right, as people.
Speaker 3:I had to realize that you weren't. It wasn't a personal attack on me, it was more so. It was a you thing, not a me thing, and I didn't need to add to that. So when I would find myself getting frustrated and going I really like I'm on, like I'll be just transparent going I'm so freaking sick and tired I wasn't gonna say anything bad so sick and tired of listening to this. Right now I would just still listen to it because I knew it had to. You had to get it out, okay, and and I.
Speaker 1:I understand that, but like what do you think marriage wise? Um, what was it doing to you as a wife?
Speaker 3:it made me feel isolated as far as our marriage went um, it made me I just didn't feel like I was in, like there was like not a duality there, it was just it was you and then there was me. But there, um, it made me feel less of an us and I didn't feel connected to you, like I could just completely come to you and pour my heart out, like I didn't. I was like I that's, I can't do that right because I would look at you and go.
Speaker 3:He's got way too much going on and he can't even though he's supposed to, he can't carry the burden with me Cause he's got his own crap to deal with, which it just, it just I didn't look, I didn't look at you.
Speaker 1:That's gonna make me cry as someone who could care for and nurture and protect your heart and and all of that.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:And you just become this beast, Just like Hulk right.
Speaker 3:Yes, um, and it made me go. I have to carry all this inside by myself which, again touching on the gospel, like it did, make me go to Jesus more. I'm air quoting, you can't see, but yeah.
Speaker 1:And, and, yeah, and. When I said the gospel like, I didn't mean like you're not allowed to talk about it like. Obviously you know, because that's going to be the question at this point in everyone's mind. I'm sure you know someone listening right now is sitting here going. I'm in that situation, whether they're, you know, coming from my perspective or yours. Right.
Speaker 1:But they're sitting here going how, how do you move past that situation? And so, who do you want to go first? Do you want me to go first, and and how I wound up moving past it, or you, you?
Speaker 3:you go first all right.
Speaker 1:So for for me and again this is something like one I want to say this disclaimer I don't think you ever move past no right, I I think you learn to cope. I think you learn to cope. I think you learn um different strategies. I think you learn you know to to identify different triggers and things like that, but I don't think it's something you ever like. Oh, I don't deal with that anymore.
Speaker 3:Um, right, right, yeah, cause I think some people, it's something you grow in, it's something you mature in. You learn how to work through? Yes, you learn how to work through you.
Speaker 1:Yes, you learn how to work through, because anger is still, to this day, my go-to primary emotion, correct um, and it is still that emotion that I can process all of the other negative emotions through. I just can do it in a more healthy way, right um you know through learning how to but for me it was you know, and I learning how to.
Speaker 1:But for me it was you know, and I can even go back to that same night. You know, I just got off of work, started drinking. I don't know a couple of hours had went by and I was on the cell phone and I say cell phone like that because it was when they first came out.
Speaker 3:It was a cellular device. It was not an iPhone.
Speaker 1:This is almost 20 years ago, so you know a little bit past the bag, the phone in a bag, but not quite to an iPhone. And we were talking and I remember, like you know, on the phone I was like I hate you and I hate my life and I hate, and I hate my life and I hate, and, and in that moment I noticed.
Speaker 1:It wasn't you I was angry at. It was me, first of all, um, and, and looking at all the mistakes that had made, you know, led me to the place and position I was in right and and in, in, honestly in, in a God given moment of clarity the next day, you know cause. You were like hey, like this was your one oops, and yeah, and there was. There was a lot of other things that transpired that night that you know. I didn't wind up coming back home, you know, until like five the next morning.
Speaker 3:We both left Right, you didn't come home. Right, you didn't come home. I left, yeah, I'm just saying like obviously it wasn't just this one you know conversation.
Speaker 1:Right. But the next morning, you know, I was sitting out by the pool and you came out carrying JT, who was a very, very little baby at the time, little baby. And you were like, hey, this was your one, oops. And this was like even before you could really get anything out. I was like, look, I'm sorry and for those of you listening that you're like, who cares about a sorry, what you have to understand is. I do not apologize like the words.
Speaker 3:I'm sorry oh, that sounds arrogant. It's not that you don't. It's not that you're not sorry about stuff. No, no, no, no. You just don't use the words. I don't apologize so for.
Speaker 1:Debbie to hear me go. I'm sorry, it wasn't that. No, it's not a prideful I never, I'm never wrong. Right. Like. No, I just don't believe in the words. I'm sorry. Like that.
Speaker 3:That's a changed behavior, right you?
Speaker 1:know, and if you're truly sorry, you just won't do it again, correct and and that kind of that that broke my heart in a way, know, realizing all of that and looking at you and going, look, I'm sorry, like I don't even have an excuse for it, like it just, you know I, I had a god-given moment of clarity of going it's me, there's something broken in me which led me to be able to, at that point, see scripture that I'd already known right, it was written in your heart but see it in a way I'd never seen it before, like um Ephesians 5, when Paul goes you know husbands, um, you know wives, submit to your husbands like duh.
Speaker 1:I've said that since our marriage right, so so what? And um but then it it led me to the next verse, where he's sitting here going husbands, love your wife, as Christ loved the church and gave his life up for her. Right.
Speaker 1:And and it made me look at Jesus in a different way and go like Jesus knew what I was going to be in, knew the person I was going to be, and still chose to lay his life down for me. And I went and now he's calling me to do the same thing for you. And and that was hard for me Um, not that I've never. I mean, I've always been the one that worked and provided and took care of and did the husband things right, you know, fix things at the house and mow the lawn, protect. You know that I've always filled that role. But now it was like looking at you differently and going.
Speaker 1:But Jesus calls you to lay down everything you are right not just do the the husbandly things right um, but to lay down everything you are and that includes you right, like that includes myself, and that's when I went um. I gotta get a handle on this like this. Can't keep progressing the way that it's going um, because what I'm doing to her is putting a weight on her um that she could not carry um, because I'm trying to take all of the things inside of me that are broken and wrong and lay it on her and go hey, you need to carry this. And.
Speaker 1:I go. What kind of husband does that? Now, before anyone gets any ideas like so, there's a couple of things I want to talk about with that. Number one is this Could you have come to me at any point and told me any of that?
Speaker 3:could I've told you those words yeah, sure, would they have mattered?
Speaker 1:no, not at all. All right, so even if you came to me and been like, hey, we need to talk about this, you're putting a weight on me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, it wouldn't have necessarily mattered, right, right, I mean I'm sure I would have heard the words you were saying, and and and all of that. Number two, again going back to I hate that saying just, you know, just give it to Jesus, because that is a very Christian thing to say. That really has no practicality in it. Right.
Speaker 1:It's sitting here going Jesus forgave me for this. Okay, I have that forgiveness and and there's nothing I can do to earn that forgiveness, but repentance is a turning away from that right and and sitting here going, it's okay to be angry like you. You had quoted ephesians 4 earlier where paul to be angry Like you. You had quoted Ephesians four earlier, where Paul goes be angry and sin not Like Jesus got angry, God gets angry.
Speaker 3:Like there's righteous anger.
Speaker 1:You read through the prophets and you see God has turned his face from Israel. Being angry is not the problem.
Speaker 1:It's what you do with that anger, and, and that's where I went. Things had to change correct, and and that's where I went. Things had to change because, for me, what I would do with that anger was go, I don't want to deal with life, I just want to have some drinks, act like none of this ever happened, get angry and then whatever is in my path, is collateral damage correct? Whatever is in my path, is collateral damage Correct? Where I went, first and foremost, I need to fix the things that I'm so angry about.
Speaker 1:Right, like hey, I chose to give away scholarships to go to college, and you know all of that, and I'm not saying college is for everyone, but it was definitely for me, correct, and and so I had to go back.
Speaker 3:Um, I knew I was in the position I was in in life because of the choices, because of the choices I made, so I had to make different choices see, but I think that's a lot of things could be fixed in with people if they were to look in the mirror and go oh, I did that right. Oh, this is my fault. I should have made personal accountability and responsibility is huge right and if, if that happened more often, not just with men, I mean with women too going I like I did this that you would you there would be much more growth, much faster yesterday in bible.
Speaker 1:That was one of the things during bible class that I was talking to the kids about um, where you know we were.
Speaker 1:We were talking through why did God create me? Well, I mean simply put God created you out of an overflow of love and, and then sin came in and corrupted and, and so we went down that, that path, and then we were talking about um. We were talking about um, the, the, the book, that, our Bible book. It was zephaniah 3 and it picks up in like verse 16 and it was talking about you know how god has not forsaken and will come and restore. And I was like, okay, and I get that and, as christians, a lot of time, that those are the verses we cling to right.
Speaker 1:Jeremiah 29, 11 for I know the plans that I have for you declares the lord plans to prosper you and not to harm you right you know psalm 23, you know we look at these and we go god is for us and he is just not in the way we think he is. He's for us, for himself, for his glory. Right, god is going to restore and redeem, because that is who god is, um. So he's going to take broken creation and and's going to go. I'm going to redeem this for my glory. But we have the tendency to look at those verses and go oh so this is bad, it must be from the devil.
Speaker 1:And so what I was telling the kids was yeah, Jesus in John 15 says in this world, or 16, might be 16. Anyway, it's one of the two In this world. You will have trouble, but take heart, I have overcome the world. Right, Right, You're going to have trouble. Things are going to go wrong. Some of it is going to be out of the realm of your possibility.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:Things are going to go wrong. Some of it is going to be out of the realm of your possibility.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:Our girls were born. You know, we had a two and a half year old, two years old, two year old. And then we had twin girls born and we were homeless Because the housing market hit. We both lost our jobs. Very good jobs Ran through all of our money trying to, you know, hold on to our house and everything that.
Speaker 3:Unemployment didn't pay much Didn't happen, oh, eight, you know, and nobody would hire us.
Speaker 1:To 2012 were bad years for a lot of people. Oh yeah, we couldn't have seen that coming.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 1:But then I was trying to get the kids to understand.
Speaker 3:But most of the time your life is the way it is because of the choices that you made. Because of your choices. I didn't know you talked about that and literally had that conversation in my bible class today so it was me coming to that realization.
Speaker 1:When it came to anger, it was sitting here and going. My life is where it is because of me, right, because the choices I had made, um, for whatever reason, and and I could sit here, and that's hard to swallow sometimes. And I can stomp my feet and I can be angry, or I could be a man and actually do things about it Right and actually go. Hey, you know what, let me put in the work. And yeah, it's twice as hard to do it right the second time, correct, but it can still be done.
Speaker 3:And it was done.
Speaker 1:And so for me it was. It was realizing all that and then putting in the work to actually change that right to sit here and go. Okay, when I get angry, one identify what am I angry at right right and, and you know to, to sit here and go. Ok, I need to focus the energy. That would turn into an argument or, you know, would turn into me just stomping and pouting, you know pouting and go. Ok, no like, let me use that energy to fix to fix that Mm hmm.
Speaker 1:Let me focus on that. But I'm telling you, because we've had those conversations right Before all of this, like we had those conversations and they didn't go well, so so I'm not saying all of this to sit here and go hey, you need to sit down with your spouse and go. Hey, you need to cause.
Speaker 3:I'm telling you that is not going to work out the way you think it is.
Speaker 1:However, share the podcast with them. Let them hear someone else tell them hey, sometimes the problem is you, Sometimes it is your fault.
Speaker 3:And that doesn't mean you have to live there with it.
Speaker 1:And that's just what I was going to say and understand. That's not the end of the road. You can rectify as long as you have breath in your lungs. We are given the ministry of reconciliation. Yes, first, corinthians nine I believe you like.
Speaker 3:That is the ministry that we are given although when the kids did say mr lively knows all the bible verses, I do not.
Speaker 1:He knows a lot of them um, you know, and that reconciliation goes not just for others but for yourself too, and so for me it was hitting all of that, and it was seeing Jesus in that light.
Speaker 3:Because you did have to forgive yourself for mistakes you made.
Speaker 1:I did, and it's still something I struggle with. Sure you, know, I have a whole lifetime. Well, not a whole lifetime, but I mean everyone does at least 18 years of bad decisions but Well, not a whole lifetime, but I mean everyone does At least 18 years of bad decisions, of mistakes. But on the same hand I go. You know, yes, all of us have things in our past. That was the hardest thing for me with cancel culture, and I know this has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
Speaker 3:But You're not even giving people an opportunity for redemption. It's not even that. It's who are you to? Not it's? Not even that it's who are you to stand up? You don't have anything in your past.
Speaker 1:Right there's you're, uh, you're sitting here attacking people and I go you have your own mess right, and we all do, yes, you know and, and, and we all have stories and we all have that, but anyway, so so that's where it got me, okay, and so to give it to Christ for me meant I need to be like Christ, like.
Speaker 3:I need to Serving sacrificial yes.
Speaker 1:I need to look at my marriage the way that Christ commands me to look at my marriage. Right. I need to look at this and go. Jesus tells me to lay everything I am down for her, and that includes myself, and so I would. And I would go hey, look like, yeah, I'm angry, yeah, I had a bad day, yeah, this went wrong or that went wrong or whatever the case may be, but it wasn't Debbie who did it.
Speaker 3:And those are things that you started to say out loud. I'm mad right now. You know I got a lot on my mind, but it's not you, so that would give me kind of a whew. Okay, so I would. That tension would drop. Right.
Speaker 3:And even though I was still concerned because you're frustrated and of course I don't want you to be angry I would have some freedom going. Okay, this doesn't mean that it's going to turn into an argument or a fight, because he just said it's not me, right? Um, you know there's nothing between us that's wrong.
Speaker 1:He's working through something right now so what gave you the ability to go, hey, I'm gonna weather this storm and hey, I'm going to?
Speaker 3:weather, this storm and stay.
Speaker 1:Like I'm going to stay, I'm going to see where this turns out, Like why, how did you handle that on your side? Because I know there was a lot of prayer. I know, I know Like you would literally like lay hands and pray on me at night. I did when you thought I was sleeping, and all of that on me at night when you thought I was sleeping, and all of that. But what was it going?
Speaker 3:through your mind going, hey, like this is going to change. Well, a couple things. I didn't 100% know it was going to change, but I did know that. I mean, I love you deeply and you know your bouts of anger weren't all the time and I knew you'd never hurt me. You know you'd never hurt the kids, but I knew we all have our thing. Your thing just happened to be struggling with anger.
Speaker 3:Um, mine is an emotional roller coaster, so I mean we get to that in a different podcast um your thing and I and I knew you didn't want to be like that like again never abusive, you'd never hurt me, you'd never lay hands on me. Was that you?
Speaker 1:Was that you? I was trying to look at you like Tom, but I just took that sip of water.
Speaker 3:That's the water. I heard I lost focus, but I knew you were singing my praises.
Speaker 1:I would never hurt you, was I genuinely, even in my lowest, still amazing husband yes, I genuinely believed that God was going to restore you um.
Speaker 3:I prayed for that. I genuinely believe that you know God was moving.
Speaker 3:I knew God had called you to other things, um, and I might get a little spiritual for a second, but I know when God's called you to other things. Um, and I might get a little spiritual for a second, but I know when god's called you to shh, when god calls you to something. When god calls you to something, you're going to have attacks from the enemy. You are and, and to me, sometimes I would look at it as an attack from the enemy, because that time that we would spend arguing and we'd be spent, we'd spend, you know, engulfed in this, you know, battle. That's time that we were taking away from the things that god called us to do the kids, the kids, the kids ministry, whatever, even just spending quality time together, because then what would happen for me?
Speaker 3:I would be so frustrated, I didn't want to spend quality time with you, I didn't want to hang out with you, I didn't want to talk to you.
Speaker 1:Which is hard, because not only are we husband and wife, we are genuinely best friends Literally, we love spending time together and even when I'm mad, like Josh, is the one I want to talk to.
Speaker 3:So to be so upset that I was like I don't want to talk to him right now, like we would sit down watch movie. I just didn't want to be around. I didn't want to go anywhere else, but I just didn't want to be there, right. So it caused an emotional division for me because I just didn't see him as that person I could lean on anymore, him, you.
Speaker 3:I like I'm talking to people I mean I am so to me. You have to. I knew I had to be aware that, okay, this isn't just a bout of anger from Josh. I have to be aware that the enemy is seeking to kill, steal and destroy my marriage, my husband, my family, ministry, everything God called us to peace, tranquility. So I had to. There were times I had to keep myself in check and go. I can't join in because one I know it's not me Sometimes. I mean, sometimes it was me, it's not me, and I know it's not always going to be like this.
Speaker 1:Well, and one of the things I can appreciate looking back on it now, um, and it wasn't like this early in our marriage. Like early in our marriage, it was definitely like you want to go tit for tat on everything, Um, and then it wound up being way worse than it ever should have been, Um. But especially after, you know, after this whole period, um, you were very grace filled a lot of the time and and going as I was trying to learn those new skills of processing and and being able to go okay, hold on, let me identify what I'm angry at, Um, and then let me, you know, brainstorm ways that I can deal with that in a healthy way. Um, you were very grace, filled in the fact that it was all right, let's try it. You know, and, and you knew at that point that sometimes, as a helpmate, you know, you knew, okay, sometimes I need to say something, something, sometimes I just need to not just be quiet and listen just he'll, he'll kind of like he'll kind of burn himself out.
Speaker 3:You would. You would go on and on and on, and you weren't really looking for feedback, you weren't even looking for a conversation you were just trying to get something out and you were kind of having a conversation with yourself right I just happened to be there.
Speaker 1:And since I am the smartest person I know, oh boy.
Speaker 3:So full of humility, Um, you would, you'd be working it out. And then, before I realized it, I mean, there were times I would try to constantly interject, but then, once I learned you a little more and went, oh okay, this is just how he's processing. I just need to step back and go. Did you want me like, are you looking for advice?
Speaker 1:Well, and I still do that, but I mean, I've done that almost the entire time. We've been together where you'll start going into something I'll be like hold on, is this a? You're looking for feedback or do you just need to get this out?
Speaker 3:And that is something I learned from you and I'm thankful for that, because it gave I think it gives us the opportunity to go. Are we listening to respond? Are we listening just to be?
Speaker 1:well, you should always seek first to understand seven habits of highly effective people.
Speaker 3:Um, that was part of being proactive. I'm trying to. You know it's just in there letting you work things out, and then there are some times where I would be like, well, hang on, hang on. Have you looked at it from this perspective?
Speaker 1:but, and you have to, you have to know but I didn't.
Speaker 3:I had to, I had to really like for me, I go, and I think a lot of women struggle with it. We want to like, we get too caught up emotionally and it's like men aren't as emotional as we are in the same or in the same way. We are Right, so sometimes we just have to go.
Speaker 1:There is a difference between men and women.
Speaker 3:Yes, you have to go For me. I was like OK, I mean, I got really good at going, OK, All right. You know, I did learn that from you too.
Speaker 1:Well, no, and like you were just saying, though, that I mean you have to know your spouse, your partner, your kids good, enough, because I mean all of this applies to every relationship. Yeah, like this could.
Speaker 3:We could just as easily be talking about a friendship we have three kids and we deal with each one of them overall overarching.
Speaker 1:We are how we are as parents, but we deal with each one of them individually right, because they're not the same right and and you have to know that because, yeah, like you just said, there are times where I'm going to talk something out out loud. You know, I'm a verbal processor.
Speaker 3:Sometimes to exhaustion where it's like okay. Enough All right and for me, like even taking it back to you know, I clung to the feet of Jesus. I literally my prayer was God, help me see him the way you see him, because how I'm seeing him right now is not very good. Right, and so my prayer was that God changed my heart, changed my viewpoint, and help me see you for the child that he created you to be.
Speaker 1:Well, and the brokenness.
Speaker 3:And that's what I mean, and that's what I meant, yeah because I needed to be able to see you and I only knew that because these are conversations we've had right I needed to see that in you, because there was a time that I didn't see you as broken, I didn't see you as needing any help or anything, so that was overwhelming. So to be able to see you as a real person, with real flaws and struggles yeah yeah.
Speaker 3:I went oh my gosh, it gave me such a. It softened my heart to you in a way that it hadn't been for a long time, because my heart had been hardened towards you right, um, and that was hard for me.
Speaker 1:And I'll tell you, like JT, if I really want to get JT to do something, you know schoolwork if I really want them to get a schoolwork done. I just got to make them angry because we've instilled luckily, you know as parents knowing these tips and and, and knowing parents, knowing these tips and and and knowing not tips really, but tools. I guess you could say strategies and going, hey, like, here's how you like, and I again, I hate to keep bringing up the incredible hole, but like in 2008's incredible hulk with edward norton, not mark ruffalo, we watch a lot of movies at the end of the movie okay, and this was 2008.
Speaker 1:So if if you're like, oh, you spoiled the movie shame on you.
Speaker 3:Shame on you.
Speaker 1:You should have watched it at the end of the movie, you know, he's like he has to go fight abomination and and they're like, well, he's like I need to go. It has to be me, you know. And they're like, well, can you control it? And he's like, no, but maybe if I could aim it and I go. And that's what anger did for me. Right. I will tell you right now anger is not always the bad thing, like, in fact, in the book Fighting Shadows in fact tonight like during the men's book study.
Speaker 1:We're we're going to be going over this a little bit over ambition, and and one of the things it talks about is you have to turn, you have to be frustrated enough to change Right. You like I and this is something we talk about a lot like until you hate something enough, you won't change it. Correct Right, like you could be like oh, I need to lose weight, I need to lose weight, I need to lose weight. For me, it was like when I hit a certain pant size, I went nope, not having that. Nope, nope, nope. That is a true story.
Speaker 1:Like we are exercising.
Speaker 3:We are dieting Like we are doing this, the whole family is doing it.
Speaker 1:And where you have to, you have to get angry enough to go. I'm going to change this.
Speaker 3:Because if you sit with your anger and you don't do anything about it, it's going to eat you alive.
Speaker 1:Right, but it can also be a huge driving force behind.
Speaker 3:That's what I'm saying it needs to be a driving force.
Speaker 1:And that catalyst and change yeah.
Speaker 3:Because, I mean anger got you to finish the bachelor's and master's in a year and a half. It got you to change your career. I mean it really sparked the beginning of a lot of great things. Because you were so angry at how it was, you were like no, it's gotta be another way.
Speaker 1:Right, and that's where I went. So coming on the other side of that and being able to walk through all of that and see all of that and go, oh wow, this can be something that you can use for good, right, yeah. And go, oh wow, this can be something that you can use for good, right, yeah, like that's something we we've really tried to instill in jt and our son.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you have to hate this enough to do something.
Speaker 1:The girls- too, but like in a different way, like you just said, the girls don't respond like that like jt does right. You know, and most guys do, and when you get angry enough about something, you will change it right, like, and so it's sitting here going like. For me, even going back to what we were talking about, it was when I got angry enough at myself, right, and I went on the problem, and that's when I needed to change.
Speaker 3:And that takes a lot of maturity and growth and that's big to go. Oh, it's me. Okay, this is my fault.
Speaker 1:So laying it at the cross laying it at. Jesus's feet for me was sitting here and going. I need to repent, like I. I need to work on this.
Speaker 3:Like I need to fix it, and you came to me and said that. I mean you came to me and we talked about it.
Speaker 1:I mean I say talked about it Like at first I had to get there first. Yeah, first I had to go to Jesus Right and then and then through that was able to go okay now.
Speaker 3:I'm not going to go to Debbie.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:And I mean for me as a wife. I'm not talking about like praying, like a like. I prayed incessantly over it. Right, um, almost to the point where it was like okay yeah, okay, yeah, or you're making me angry with your prayers, like, um, you know I talked to. I mean, I had women in my life that were, you know, great examples and and I was able and you had women in your life who were like, hey, it's time to go I did have one in my life that were different podcasts.
Speaker 3:We can get into a whole different conversation, um, but yeah, I did have, so be careful who you listen to. Um, I don't talk to those women anymore, but yeah, I had women in my life, older women that had, you know, weathered storms and had been married for a long time. That really poured into me, um, and I look back now and it might make me cry again. Um, I'm like literally forever grateful and thankful.
Speaker 1:I mean, they prayed with me, they prayed for me, they prayed for you, they prayed for the kids yeah, I know, and then when I would show up at church irregularly at the time right and then, like these ladies, these older ladies, would come up to me and be like you're josh right we've been praying for you like we were praying for you and then it's like why are you praying for me?
Speaker 3:like um, but I also, I also pray that god show me the areas in my life that I needed to change, because I couldn't have just looked at you and been like, oh he's the problem, even in situations where you were the problem, but that's why jesus says that right, how are you gonna take the log out?
Speaker 1:or how are you going to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye?
Speaker 3:I had to look. You know, there's hard work that we as wives we have to do, or whatever husbands, whoever is on either side to go. What part did I play and how can I be better and what can I do to help that other person?
Speaker 1:Amen. So I hope you liked the how-to series. Like I said, this was just the first one. We're going to experiment with some other ones. Oh boy, if you like it, you know, let us know. Yep, let us know in the comments of wherever you see this. You could always reach out at info at missionscentorg, or, if you are one of the people that have our phone, give us a call are one of the people that have our phone. Give us a call, texas. Other than that, we thank you, we love you.
Speaker 2:We can't do this out without you, and we'll see you next time. Bye guys.